Hellfire and Brimstone

It's not often that somebody has the cojones to write me a hellfire-and-brimstone reply that I can actually respond to. Here's an entire exchange. Because we reply to specific points, I had to reduplicate text -- I'll keep her replies in red, like this. 

The Challenge:

	just a Christian replying to your page...
	You know what, it's pointless even saying this,
	But I know you will go straight to hell when u die
	if u carry on like this.
	
	I have about a million words to say to u.
	1:you just try and prove that hell DOESN'T exist!!!
	2: prove that there isn't a loving God who sent his 
	one and only precious, handsome son into the world
	for him to be mocked and critised and spat on by 
	people like you and then killed slowly and painfully.
	For the one and only simple reason... for you to 
	live eternally.

	PROVE that jesus didn't die for YOU, you terrible 
	person who mocks his name, you SINNER!
	PROVE that he didn't love you and care for you
	so much that he died for you even though you
	would have been one of the first to spit on him
	if you'd had the chance. PROVE IT!
	You ask Christians to prove what we know..well
	why not get up off your butt and try yourself
	TRY and do it.. look in the bible where it's says
	immoral people like you would rot in hell, where
	it's written so many times that it's true.
	I know heaps of people who have tried to prove 
	jesus wrong but haven't succeeded. I want u to try
	I hope you try. And I bet, that you wont be 
	able to prove that there is no God, and that the 
	bible isn't true. Because there is a God, who forgives
	even the most evil beings if they ask. Because
	he loves even YOU!And the bible is true because 
	God himself wrote it through prophets.

	Maybe you don't agree with Christians and I actually stumbled
	on your page by mistake, but there is no reason why you have
	you deny that we tell the truth.
	
	You must remember that we have God on our side. It doesn't matter 
	whether you have satan on your side because even a Christian is more 
	powerful than satan himself. Because we have Jesus and God who care
	for so much.

[Suddenly her reply gets a bit more welcoming, as if two different people wrote:]

	I have witnessed so much just by praying to God. For little things
	and big things. I have witnessed God's work in peoples lives for
	years and I KNOW he works in mine.
	
	I garentee, If u ever want God in your life, just call him
	and he will save you forever. But I also garantee, that if
	u don't, you're obviously not gonna be too happy in eternity
	are you.
	
	This won't scare you I know, because u don't believe in hell.
	But what about heaven? do u believe in that??
	Because heaven is a WONDERFUL place. I'm sure people who have seen 
	heaven could tell you what it's like, I'm sure people who have SEEN 
	angels sent from God can tell you god is real, (one for instance is
	my mum.)And I'm sure that people who have SEEN and TOUCHED god, will
	tell you that he's real, and they do have proof. They may not be able
	to show you it, but they still have proof.
	
	well I know I have bored you to death and what do ya know, I have
	church tomorrow.. I'd better get some sleep.

	Last message before I leave: God loves you, and he wants to be your
	friend. :)
	
	AMEN!
	please believe me.. I know what I'm talking about.

My Reply:

Becky --

Thanks for your time.  I'll try to respond to your points one-at-a-time.  

> just a Christian replying to your page...
> You know what, it's pointless even saying this,
> But I know you will go straight to hell when u die
> if u carry on like this.
> I have about a million words to say to u.
> 1:you just try and prove that hell DOESN'T exist!!!

I will, just as soon as you prove to me that there are no green swans.

> 2: prove that there isn't a loving God who sent his 
> one and only precious, handsome son into the world
> for him to be mocked and critised and spat on by 
> people like you and then killed slowly and painfully.
> For the one and only simple reason... for you to 
> live eternally.

I will, just as soon as you prove to me that there's no such thing as Unicorns.

Do you see what I'm getting at?  How is it possible to prove that something *doesn't* exist?
The burden of proof is on the person claiming that God/green swans/unicorns exist.  

> PROVE that jesus didn't die for YOU, you terrible 
> person who mocks his name, you SINNER!

Blah blah glass houses blah blah stones.  Sanctimony is *such* a poor tool for converting people...  It only makes you sound crazed and obnoxious. 

> PROVE that he didn't love you and care for you
> so much that he died for you even though you
> would have been one of the first to spit on him
> if you'd had the chance. PROVE IT!

Again, it's a simple matter to prove that something exists (or existed).
Then why is it so hard to prove Jesus' existence, much less His divinity?  If this is
such an important issue, why didn't God make this unquestionably obvious?  God spoke
directly to the Israelites -- why not us?  Why should doubt even be a part of life?    

Christians are making a positive claim for God/Jesus' existence.  Therefore, the burden
of proof is on the Christian.  Let's say I make a positive claim like "Even though I live
in Antarctica, I have a maple tree in my front yard," it's not up to you to *dis*prove me,
it's up to me to prove it.  Got it?  

I should also say that skepticism isn't mockery.  Indeed, how can I "spit on" Jesus when
I'm not sure He existed -- or was divine.  Even if he did exist, there are things in his
philosophies I find valuable (just as I find some aspects of Buddhism valuable).  However,
I am skeptical of the claims that he was son of God.  No mockery, just a difference in
opinion.  

> You ask Christians to prove what we know..well
> why not get up off your butt and try yourself
> TRY and do it.. look in the bible where it's says
> immoral people like you would rot in hell, where
> it's written so many times that it's true.
> I know heaps of people who have tried to prove 
> jesus wrong but haven't succeeded. I want u to try
> I hope you try. And I bet, that you wont be 
> able to prove that there is no God, and that the 
> bible isn't true. Because there is a God, who forgives
> even the most evil beings if they ask. Because
> he loves even YOU!

I *have* tried.  And I haven't been convinced.  I've
read *countless* arguments for God's existence, from St. Anselm to C.S. Lewis,
both when I was a Christian and afterward.  This is why I make the challenge
on my website, since I'd love to see something better than what I've read.  

As for the Bible, don't believe everything you read.  After all, there are
sections of the Koran that say people like *you* would go to hell, and it
says it many times.  Why are you choosing the Bible over the Koran?  Might
it be that you believe the Bible over the Koran because it's part of your
culture and not because it's true?  I suspect if you'd been born and raised
in the Middle East your email would've called me an "INFIDEL" instead of
"SINNER" above!  To me, your arguments are no better than chest-beating
in Teheran square.  

> And the bible is true because 
> God himself wrote it through prophets.

Hmm.  Have you ever heard of the phrase "circular
logic"?  I suggest you look it up.  Here's your  last argument in a nutshell:
	
	"We know that God exists because the Bible tells us so. 
	And we know that the Bible is true because it is the word of God."

Might it be possible to put your self-righeousness aside long enough to
see why this is a ridiculous argument?  

> Maybe you don't agree with Christians and I actually stumbled on your 
> page by mistake, but there is no reason why you have you deny that we 
> tell the truth.

By mistake?  How can that be?  

As far as your next statement is concerned, I don't *deny* what you say,
I am *skeptical* of what you say.  There's a big difference.  I simply haven't
seen sufficient evidence for God's existence.  I withhold belief in God until
I see otherwise.  So far, nobody's been able to do show otherwise. 

> You must remember that we have God on our side. 

You do?  Then why isn't it obvious to me?  Remember: I don't believe in God. 

> It doesn't matter 
> whether you have satan on your side because even a Christian is more 
> powerful than satan himself. Because we have Jesus and God who care for 
> us so much.

News flash: I don't believe in Satan either. 

> I have witnessed so much just by praying to God. For little things and 
> big things. I have witnessed God's work in peoples lives for years and I 
> KNOW he works in mine.

How do you know you aren't deluded?  "I just know" isn't
a good answer.  (There're people who "just know" lots of things, from the existence
of entirely different Gods to whether or not they were Napoleon.  There were people
in ancient times who "just knew" that Zeus, Baal, Vishnu, etc.  All existed.  Were
they *all* correct?)  

> I garentee, If u ever want God in your life, just call him and he will 
> save you forever. But I also garantee, that if u don't, you're obviously 
> not gonna be too happy in eternity are you.

"Obviously"?  Why?  The only way to agree with you is to believe that
God exists.  Since I don't believe in God most of your arguments make little sense.  

> This won't scare you I know, because u don't believe in hell.
> But what about heaven? do u believe in that??

I haven't seen any evidence.  

> Because heaven is a WONDERFUL place. 

So is San Francisco, but at least I know *that* exists.  

> I'm sure people who have seen 
> heaven could tell you what it's like, I'm sure people who have SEEN 
> angels sent from God can tell you god is real, (one for instance is my 
> mum.)And I'm sure that people who have SEEN and TOUCHED god, will tell 
> you that he's real, and they do have proof. They may not be able to show 
> you it, but they still have proof.

Well, then, that's not proof, is it?  Imagine you're trying
to prove in court that somebody killed somebody else.  You say to the judge -- "I
have proof.  You can't see it, but I have it."    If you had no physical evidence,
they'd throw you out of court.  Anyhow, I respect the fact that you know people who
believe they've seen angels.  However, as I've said before, there are eyewitnesses
to just about everything, including things that agree with *and* contradict what your
mum saw.  People are notoriously capable of "seeing" things they really really want
to believe, from "visions" to UFOs to Sister Theresa in sticky buns to Elvis in patterns
on tortillas.  Why are angels any different?  

There's a great cartoon that's relevant here, called "Religion Made Simple."  In it,
two people are talking on a park bench.  One says "But how do you *know* a giant wheel
of cheese piloted by centipedes will come to take you to the eternal bowling alley of
paradise after you croak?"  The man replies: "Faith is knowledge... knowledge is faith...
Duh!"  How is your argument any different? 

Thanks again for your time,

Mike

She Replies!

To be honest, I wasn't expecting a reply. But she did! Here 'tis:

you said:

>Then why is it so hard to prove Jesus' existence, much less His 
>divinity?

ok: there is proof that Jesus existed.. in Rome where the pope live 
there are certificates of death of Jesus hanging on the wall for 
everyone to see.

>If this is such an important issue, why didn't God make this 
>unquestionably obvious?  

well, God actually gave us a choice...thats why people like you are 
living today, but  it's up to you whether you go to hell or not.

>God spoke directly to the Israelites -- why not us?  Why should doubt 
>even be a part of life?

God Spoke to them in a different way than he speaks to us. If you WERE a 
real Christian (as you said you were) and got prayed for, you would know 
that because God touches people in special ways letting them speak in 
tongues etc.
And Satan causes doubt. (not that u believe in him either)
but I have a question.. you must believe in God because otherwise why 
would you go to so much trouble to make your webpage??!!

well I could go on forever about the points u made, and how they sounded 
really obnoxious. but I won't.
thanks.

My Most Recent Reply

(She never responded)

(I wrote:)

>>Then why is it so hard to prove Jesus' existence, much less His 
>>divinity?

>ok: there is proof that Jesus existed.. in Rome where the pope live 
>there are certificates of death of Jesus hanging on the wall for 
>everyone to see.

To be honest, that's the first I heard of this.  If they do exist,
how do you know that these are authentic?  Other "evidence" -- such as Josephus' histories,
have been demonstrably faked.  If someone took all the "authentic" pieces of the cross (or
the ark, etc.), you could make a city full of houses with them...  How is this any different?  

>>If this is such an important issue, why didn't God make this 
>>unquestionably obvious?  

>well, God actually gave us a choice...thats why people like you are 
>living today, but  it's up to you whether you go to hell or not.

Well, God presumably gave *some* people a choice -- those who live
in societies where Christianity is prevalent.  Plus, the "choice" involves believing without
evidence, so that preselects the gullible.  Why?

>God spoke directly to the Israelites -- why not us?  Why should doubt 
>>even be a part of life?

>God Spoke to them in a different way than he speaks to us. 

Why would he be so willfully obscure, then?  Why only appear to
those who *already* believe?  If the price of disbelief is eternal damnation, I'd suggest
that if God *did* exist, he was stacking the deck.  Hardly a just God, eh?  If He created
us with brains, why not appeal to them?  Worse, if He was all-knowing, why even *create*
those He knew would turn against him and be damned?  As I said in my previous email: "Why
should doubt even be a part of life?"   

> If you WERE a 
> real Christian (as you said you were) and got prayed for, you would know 
> that because God touches people in special ways letting them speak in 
> tongues etc.

Even if "speaking in tongues" *was* legitimate, it only happens
through believers.  Once again, evidence only *after* belief.  After all, I've heard
schizophrenics babble exactly the same way.  People have a remarkable ability to convince
themselves to believe things, and will behave accordingly.  How is speaking in tongues
any different?  

> And Satan causes doubt. (not that u believe in him either)

So you say.  Prove it.  

> but I have a question.. you must believe in God because otherwise why 
> would you go to so much trouble to make your webpage??!!

Huh?  By that "logic," any Christian who makes a webpage challenging
Atheism or Evolution *really* believes in those things.  Of course not.  The reason why I
made those pages was that the "Indecency Page" challenging the Communications Decency Act
prompted a lot of email where people were trying to convert me.  Because of all these emails,
I wrote the other pages to show what would be necessary to convert me to Christianity.  So,
here were two reasons I made those "prove it" pages: 1) a challenge to those who would try
to convert me, and 2) to save people's time who wanted to send me an unconvincing argument
I'd heard already.  How exactly does this translate to really believing in God?  

>well I could go on forever about the points u made, and how they sounded 
>really obnoxious. but I won't.

Interesting.  You send me a seething email calling me a SINNER and
worse.  You come out of nowhere with a message full of self-righteousness and ill will, and
you say *my* reply was "obnoxious."  Remember, I was matching *your* tone of voice: Your
email was one of the most obnoxious I've received since I started the page several years
ago -- and that's saying something.  Hey, I'm certainly willing and able to be civil, but
when I'm attacked I attack back.

I notice that you don't respond to several substantive points I made,
especially about the validity of the Bible over other religious texts, as well as the believer's
burden of proof for God's existence.  Are you interested in taking that on, or are you merely
continuing with substanceless potshots?